Bisexuality & Sexual Fluidity
In this episode we’re joined by Megan van de, talking all about bisexuality & sexual fluidity. We explore what bisexuality is (and isn’t), the freedom in sexual and gender expression, how to be better allies, internalised biphobia, bisexual legitimacy, bi-curiousity, the spaciousness of bisexuality, mental health among bisexual folk, bi privilege, performative femininity - and so much more.
This is a really important episode to listen to, regardless of your sexuality, to learn more about something that is often left out of the conversation. If you’re bisexual, questioning, have loved ones who are LGBTQIA+ or simply want to be a better ally, this is a powerful, gentle, eye-opening conversation.
Meg (she/her/they/them) is a Naarm/Melbourne-based, tough and tender, bisexual artist. They are the current VP of Melbourne Bisexual Network and one of the creators of the Big Bi+ Bonanza. They have particular interests in queerness, community, love and honesty, and they aim to always be curious and brave.
This podcast is for YOU, so if you ever have any questions you’d like me to answer on the show, or topics you’d like me to cover – reach out to me on email here or over on instagram @eleanorhadley
Links & Resources
Learn more about the Big Bi+ Bonanza at www.standbius.com and @bigbibonanza
Join Melbourne Bisexual Network at: http://melbournebisexualnetwork.com
Connect with Megan on instagram: @megan_van_de
Start your journey to explore your own personal pleasure language with my free quiz, including a bonus worksheet with journaling prompts to help you dive even deeper. Take the quiz now: www.eleanorhadley.com/pleasurelanguage
~ Other links / resources mentioned in episode ~
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Episode Transcript
Hey there and welcome to episode 24 of The Sensuality Academy Podcast! This week is a bit of a different format because I’ve got an incredible guest to share with you, and I know you’re going to love them.
Megan van de, whose pronouns are she/her/they/them is a Naarm aka Melbourne-based, tough and tender, bisexual artist. They are the current VP of Melbourne Bisexual Network and one of the creators of the Big Bi+ Bonanza. They have particular interests in queerness, community, love and honesty, and they aim to always be curious and brave.
In this episode we’re talking all about bisexuality & sexual fluidity. We explore what bisexuality is (and isn’t), the freedom in sexual and gender expression, how to be a better ally, internalised biphobia, bisexual legitimacy, bi-curiousity, the spaciousness of bisexuality, mental health among bisexual folk, bi privilege, Performative femininity, and so much more.
It’s a topic I’ve been wanting to explore on the podcast for quite some time. Before we dive into the interview, I thought I’d share with you why this topic is so near and dear to my heart.
As you’ll hear soon, Meg and I speak a lot about this idea of being a “legitimate” bisexual, feeling like a fraud and not quite knowing if you’re bi “enough” to come out. As a very close friend of mine, Meg has helped me through these same feelings of being an imposter as I’ve explored my own sexuality. Coupled with reading Florence Given’s epic book, ‘Women Don’t Owe You Pretty’ - and specifically her chapter titled “Maybe it’s a Girl Crush, Maybe You’re Just Queer” - I’ve had somewhat of an awakening lately. Sidenote: I absolutely insist every human read this book. It’s incredible - I’ll provide a link in the show notes so go ahead and order your copy now while you’re listening. You can thank me later, it’s a game changer.
Anyway, I’m not going to go on too much because this episode isn’t about me, but safe to say I’ve learnt a lot from Meg. I was over here, having had sexual experiences with women but still thinking I was straight - being attracted to women - but not all women - and surely if you’re not straight you find ALL women attractive, right? Yeah…like all straight women find all men attractive? I hadn’t quite allowed myself to put this all together until recently, and I have Meg to thank for holding space for me to ask the scary questions and to be a sounding board as I worked through this new terrain.
They’re an absolute gem of a human being and I love them so very much, and I know after this episode you will too. If you love it, be sure to screenshot and share, text it to your friend and come find me on Instagram to share your biggest takeaways. So, without further ado, here’s Meg. Enjoy the episode.
ELEANOR: Hello Meg and welcome to The Sensuality Academy Podcast! Thank you so much for being here.
MEG: Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be on the show with you.
ELEANOR: I’m so looking forward to this chat today. We are talking all about Bisexuality and Sexual Fluidity. Let’s dive straight into it. We have already introduced who you are and what you do. So, lets talk about it, what is Bisexuality?
MEG: It is a really good question and if you were to ask me to do a Gay 101 people will be outraged but fact of the matter is we are still confused as to what Bisexuality is.
My favourite definition is by Sexual Activist Robyn Ox - ‘I call myself Bisexual because I acknowledge within myself the potential to be attracted romantically or sexually to people of more than one sex or gender not necessarily at the same time, not necessarily at the same way and not necessarily to the same degree.’
I love this definition because it gives room for everything that can exists within this space of multi gender attraction.
ELEANOR: I think that is a wonderful explanation of it because there are so many misconceptions of what Bisexual actually means. Like you explained in that definition and in our chat the other day, we were talking about being Bisexual as being you and another and I think a lot of people get very confused and assumed that because of the ‘BI’ aspect that means two. Can you speak more about why Bi doesn’t necessarily mean ‘only two’ especially when we are talking about genders.
MEG: I think that as our concepts of gender expand and we are less restrained by the idea of man and woman being the only things possible, which have never been the only things possible but we have been quite rooted in that binary idea of two and I think Bi obviously Bi = Two but I like to think of it more as my own gender and other genders. It gives a lot of room for people who are similar to me in terms of their gender and people who are very different from me. That can be lots of things - Man, Woman, Non-Binary people, Gender Queer Folk, it can be inclusive of everybody. Not everyone’s version of Bisexuality is the same. That’s the part of what is wonderful about it too, you get to define it for yourself.
ELEANOR: I think that too often we get really caught up in the restriction, the perceived restrictions of labels but the idea is not to be restrictive at all.
MEG: That is what I love most about it. I think that freedom is such an important concept to me, I’ve only ever felt that freedom with this label. It’s ironic, you don’t need a label to be free but often by finding your label that fit you feel a lot more freedom. I know that Hetrosexual never fit me and to be honest I felt a lot of discomfort with bisexuality as well because it was a word that was labeled with a lot of stereotypes and discomfort. I think the more I’ve learnt and understand it the more I’ve looked at the history and more i found Bi community the more i see that’s the place where I have the most room to be myself and not be restricted by ideas of what I’m supposed to perform and the kind of people I’m supposed to be attracted to.
ELEANOR: I think that is so well put because I know that in conversation with family members and people out in the world there are a lot of people who are getting confused with all these labels, it can become very stressful particularly when it has nothing to do with them. Which I find very curious but like you said there is so much freedom that can come with identifying and being part of the community, that is what you are all about.
MEG: So much so, I think that I definitely see the problem with labels and I see how they can be really restrictive and feel like we have to decide on something and stick with it. Again, that is what I like about Bisexuality and Sexual Fluidity because the point is that you are not restricting yourself, the point is you are giving yourself opportunity to be attracted to the kinds of people you are attracted to. To perform your own gender in ways that are much more expensive than what I got shown growing up being assigned female at birth and being told what a woman was supposed to look like, do and behave in these certain ways. There is so much more room for me here in this Queer space because it isn’t so bound up with black and white and specific ideas of yes and no. It’s a lot more. I always think of it as the grey space between but it’s the technicolour grey space in the middle of the binaries.
ELEANOR: I love that concept - it’s a technicolour space in between. How lovely. I want to talk a little more - for people who are listening I’m hoping that we have got people listening that either identifying as bisexual, interested and I hope you have people listening who have no clue and don’t identify this way at all. So, when are talking about these labels and communities a lot of people are not sure of the difference between Bisexual and Pansexual. Can you speak to that as well?
MEG: I think that there is a lot of discourse and angst, a bit of infighting which I feel sad about because i think all multi gender attracted folk are up against the same battle. I really think that words matter to the individual, they do on a political level as well. I have friends who are Pansexual, friends who are Bisexual and I also viewed Bisexual more like an umbrella term which is inclusive of Pansexual. The feeling is the fight isn’t within ourselves than what label we choose its more about how the world can perceive us and a lot of the barriers that in place for us for feeling happy and being able to express ourselves.
Pansexual is seen as attraction to people irrelevant of gender or genders. BIsexual can be that too. I think the nitty gritty of what one means and what the other means, I think we can get a bit lost in that. Language changes, words change, they evolve to fit the world we live in as that changes. I also think choose the label that feels right for you and let other people choose the labels that feel right for them.
ELEANOR; And, respecting what labels people choose to identify or not identify with at all. I think like anything that exists on a spectrum. I talk about this a lot in my work. Some people may feel very comfortable identifying with a label and some people think it’s not necessary. Each to their own. I think that you made a great point about language evolving and I know for some people it can seem too much because what they used to be able to say is not ok now and people harp on about what’s politically correct but I think its just about being adaptable and learning when we know better we can do better and allowing ourselves to let go of the ideas we once have and expanding that.
MEG: I completely agree with this. I feel there can be a lot of fear and frustration like in the Queer community trying to get everything right and not being able to say something, and if you say the wrong thing, you use the language that was right but isn’t right anymore it can be so stressful. I think that our impact matters although I think we get lost in forgetting that our intention matters too. The impact that we have, if we are in places with good intentions and really trying to learn we can't always get everything right. It’s constantly changing. How are you supposed to get everybody to reach these impossible standards and I think it is very alienating and could do a lot of damage because particularly I don’t want the Queer space to be a space we are policing peoples language and being classist about it. It’s another type of critiquing people for not having the same education or the same access to information like you do. I feel a lot of sadness in that space, I think that we all need to have space for error and trying to support one another with kindness and communicating when we think we can help someone do a better job or being able to own our mistakes and acknowledge we are all imperfect and trying our best.
ELEANOR: I think that this is something that really resonates right now, with everything that is going on in the world and politically not just in the Queer space and communities. We are obviously focusing on Bisexuality today but this is such an important lesson that I believe we can all take away. If someone has something that they take away from this episode I would love this to be one of the things - I believe that we all trying to do our best but sometimes with all the changing languaging and ideas and constantly finding out new things, what is and isn’t ok, it can seem really overwhelming especially when you are trying to make a difference and stand up for causes and things you believe in but I know that for me and a lot of people I have spoken to, sometimes we can stop ourselves from actually saying something or speaking up because we have a fear of getting it wrong and saying the wrong thing. This is especially true with Cancel Culture, we see big names, even smaller people, people get called out for saying the wrong thing even if they apologise it's somehow not enough. I feel that we need to flip that.
MEG: I think that there is so much loss in that. It is all about calling people out and saying that they no longer get to be a part of something. I think that its really a privilege to be called out or called in if people take the time to educate you in what you are getting wrong. I think it's really important to listen to that and value the time people have put in to be caring enough to inform you. I also think that we as humans are going to make mistakes, there needs to be room for error and room for people to come back from those things too. I have seen a few grey examples online, people calling in and calling out when people have made quite big mistakes. People are owning up to their mistakes and apologising and they are being in that space for conversation and moving through it. That has given me more hope recently. There is space to be human and it exists and not be afraid to get things wrong. I think that the perfectionist view can be so harmful and stop you from doing anything for fear of not doing it properly. I want to live in a space where I can be brave and I can own my mistakes and do better.
ELEANOR:
Absolutely, I think there is so much to learn here. When we are talking about gender and sexuality what do you think people outside of these communities could do to learn. How can those listening and those who do not identify as bisexual or queer in any realm, how can they be better allies?
MEG: I think that is a wonderful question. I think one of the key words you mentioned is listening so rather than coming in with thinking that you know all your assumptions, because we are all programmed to make assumptions about people and a really important part of the work that I do as a Queer activist, educator and advocate is questioning my own vices and own internalised bi phobia and homo phobia because we are taught to be homo phobic and bi phobic in the same ways that we taught to be racist and to be classist and have these ideas of right and wrong that don’t take into account the nuances of human existence and I think a lot of what has really helped me is being honest with myself about things I feel and acknowledging I have all the ways shaming myself because I think I am supposed to be do things in particular way even though I can’t, even if I wanted to. Being honest with myself with my own internalised phobias has been a way of reclaiming my power about those things and not letting them hurt you, not hating myself just because I am bisexual because the moments of that I have definitely experienced. It’s a long path to get from stewing in that shame to feeling acceptance and even longer to get to a place where you may feel some pride. Bi folk really struggle with pride, often we can accept ourselves for being bisexual we struggle to feel pride in that and I think there is so much sadness if you cant feel pride in the things about yourself that are wonderful and I think a lot of the things that I care about is helping Bi Folk to be proud of the fact that they are bisexual because it is really like a special, wonderful, spacious, beautiful thing to be. I think really listening and letting people define themselves in the way that they choose and not telling them that they are gay or that you are in a pretension which we hear so much and its really hard to get past those things to realising that its who we are, its not about what everyone thinks about it
ELEANOR: Let’s talk more about that because I know with discussions with you living in the world that bisexuality is so often seen as a pit stop as to being “fully gay” and its seen as a phase or all these other really harmful judgements. When I put up some question stickers on Instagram this week asking for people to share anything they wanted us to talk about I had so, somany women asking: Am I legitimate in my bisexuality if I haven't been with someone of the same gender? Am I bisexual enough? There is so much fear over being enough and what bi even means and if they are allowed to be that way.
MEGAN: The imposter syndrome is real. The idea of not being queer enough, not
straight enough. I think that is why we can feel alienated from all spaces. In Straight spaces you can feel you are not straight enough to be here, people will know that I am not right here and queer spaces if I have a partner of another gender queer people may not accept me. They might make me feel that I am actually hetrosexual and I don’t deserve to be here and take up space. I think that this is such a common thing we have from bi folk the feeling of not being quite right and needing to prove ourselves - giving a list of everybody that you have had sex with to prove that we are actually bisexual. It shouldn’t be the case. Nobody else has to do that. I think that it is how you define yourself - if you feel that you are bisexual you get to claim that. If you have attraction to different genders, even if you haven’t explored that, that doesn’t mean that you are not that it means that there hasn’t been an opportunity that has arisen maybe its not something that you want to explore but that doesn’t deny the fact that who you are and how you experience the world. I hate this kind of gatekeeping because again it is so damaging for people who really struggle to fit in and effects our mental health more than mono sexuals - gay or straight folk. That is so damaging to feel that we are never ok to be ourselves.
I also hate the idea that bicuriosity is a ‘bad’ thing. It is a beautiful thing to be curious about. I think that it is the best way to live your life is with curiosity. I really want to claim bicurious being a good thing, that is totally a wonderful space to be in and that is also ok if that leads you all the way to being gay and it is also ok to be led straight back to being not bisexual at all. Let’s allow this environments of curiosity, change and adventure. Let people live their lives without telling them who they are or what they should be doing. I think that is something I feel very strongly about. Be conscious about how you treat people in the process. I think that could be a fear for some people that this could be a stepping stone or something that someone will try and discard I think that is true for all aspects of life - treat people with respect and value them even as you navigate your own identity. So be bicurious, be curious it’s a good thing, its a wonderful thing.
ELEANOR: I love that. Curiosity is a wonderful thing. I think that a lot of people in my DMs this week have been asking specifically about bisexuality vs bicuriousity and at what point do you call yourself bisexual? Obviously the messaging we are getting from you Meg is that you can call yourself whatever the hell you want. You don’t have to decide one or the other, be curious. If you decide that it's a label you would like to explore and claim go for it if not that is cool too.
MEGAN: It is something that you move through or out of I also think there is no shame in that either. We can often shame for that process for maybe moving to bisexual before getting to gay and I’m total ok with that. If you want to come in to bi spaces to be with us and you realise you actually feel better in a gay or lesbian space that is totally ok. Of course everything is movement, transition, growth and change. I just think be conscious of not slamming the door on them on the way out but you are definitely welcome. It is one of my favourite things about bi+ community is that it has been one of the most welcoming spaces I found because so many of us know what it feels like to not be welcomed or be excluded based on who we are dating or how we are presenting and I think move through all the things you want to move through. We are not constant things, I might not always identify in the same way as I do forever. I also think that is ok, we can change and i think not allowing to change their mind is again not conceptually what I want my bisexuality to be about. I want it to be a spacious place where I can go through phases of being very much only attracted to certain people and then later attracted to other types of people. That’s ok, we are always in flux. That is what I like about this, there is a lot of room for change and I don’t want to ever feel like I have to tick certain boxes to be ok with who I am. I want to feel like there is room for me to become all the things I want to be and change in a million different ways and know that is still going to be ok.
ELEANOR: Isn’t it so strange how sexuality is deemed as something that should be static. Our bodies change, our types of food that we like change, our careers change, all these things throughout our lives change, and our preferences for things change and naturally sexuality should be a progression of that, an extension of that. Sometimes it is quite static and fixed and you are like ‘cool, I’m set here and comfortable here’. Like you could be comfortable in a suburb you have lived in for a long time but for some reason people see sexuality is something you should decide on.
For example I have a friend who was dating a woman a couple of years ago and now is dating a man and I have heard a different people comment ‘she is straight again’ but the truth is she isn’t, that’s just who she is with. I know that you have experienced this as well. Who I am with now doesn’t determine my sexuality in general.
MEGAN: Yeah, again it is a real dangerous concept the one thing we are doing at this moment and time defines all of us forever as you said - nothing is static in our lives - and also it is totally fine if it is something constant that you feel the same way about it forever, that’s great too. I just think that is the only option and we shouldn’t celebrate that above fluidity or change or evolving from something to another. There can be bizarre ideas of people who came out and realise they are bisexual as being somehow traitors to queerness. No, they are still queer. They are still very queer irrelevant of what people assume about us, or who we are standing next to or whose hand we are holding.
Again, our experiences are different, I am definitely never say I experience the same things as lesbian or a gay person and I wouldn’t pretend that I know what their experiences are alike either. Often what happens is that we experience a lot of the same things in terms of homophobia and we also experience a lot of the same things in terms of that alienation from straight society and we also experience Bi phobia so it can be really compounded from all these different directions, feeling of otherness.
There are studies that show that bi folk struggle with their mental health more after coming out as with most monosexual folk like gay men and lesbian women and gay and lesbian people who don’t identify as men and women because that is definitely a space that exists too. Mental health generally improves after coming out and bi folk we don’t, we can really struggle more after coming out as bi and that’s sad - we shouldn’t suffer more the closer we get to becoming who we are and that is a big part of why I really care about bi activism because that is a real thing that we are suffering to be ourselves and it should not be that way.
ELEANOR: I want to talk more about this because I know it is a topic that you are really passionate about Meg. The mental health among bi folk. I know when you first mentioned this to me that people who identify as bi have poorer mental health than people who identity as gay or lesbian and that initially surprised me. The reason why I think it surprised me is because there is this perception that ‘you have got the best of both worlds’ and that it should be easier because you can present as straight and get by. Which is a problem in itself - that you have to get by and present as straight - but can you talk more about bi erasure and what it means to live in that perceived in between and how that can really affect people?
MEGAN: I think it’s a quite a complex nuance aspect of this idea that we are privileged when I would argue that so many of us would feel really the opposite- we are never seen for who we are - people will never assume that I am bisexual, they would assume that I am straight or they will assume that I am gay. Generally probably more than often they will assume that I am gay because of how I present and that’s fine I am very happy to be assumed as gay, that’s something that doesn’t worry me but it can feel hard like there is always this part of me that is invisible - unless you are standing in a room and I look like a woman and I am holding hands of a woman and a man at the same time then I cannot look bisexual and it’s because we assume that people are one or the other and not this other thing which also exists which is neither gay or straight. It’s just 100% bisexual and that really doesn’t feel like privilege a lot of the times, only facets of you can exists and never the whole picture and I think that does a lot of damage that we have to compartmentalise parts of ourselves and feeling like we don’t exist as a whole and as you know a whole human being can be very alienating for your own sense of self, sense of who you are. I think that is one of the most important things I have found out finding bi+ community is being in a room where that is the default we talk about it as ‘bi default’ and I try to view the world a bit more like that these days that I assume people are bisexual unless they tell me otherwise because that is what makes sense to me, that is what i understand the best so I kinda think why wouldn’t you be? It’s allowing room for the nuance of a person as opposed to putting them inside a box before you even know anything about them.
ELEANOR: That’s such an interesting way to look at it - to assume bi - that’s so interesting
MEGAN: I love it, it feels spacious.
ELEANOR: Absolutely. I want to share some things that came up from my audience when I asked to share some questions. One of my followers shared that she struggles with the notion of bisexuality because she identifies as bi and she married her husband before she got to explore and as a consequence she feels like I can't be honest with my sexuality as I haven't been with a woman. I feel like a fraud or secretive. Can you talk about the feelings of being an imposter or feeling like an imposter? What would you say to women or men who haven't experienced being with someone of the same gender and therefore question whether or not they are really bi or not.
MEGAN: I really empathise with this, it can be a really stressful thing because we are taught that we need to ‘qualify our identity’ with evidence. The idea that we need to come with a clipboard with a list of all your sex partners in order to qualify as bisexual and I hate that concept. Do we ask people to define, to qualify their heterosexuality with all the gendered people they have had sex with? We would never do that and we don’t do that with young people to define they are heterosexual in that way. I think that you don’t need evidence to prove to people anything about who you are. It’s how you feel within yourself and something that has really helped a lot of the people I know in this position is to find bi+ community and people who are in a similar position because it can be really affirming to have friends who understand how this feels and to listen and empathise with this part of you that feels like you are not enough or an imposter because you are not. If you feel bisexual you are bisexual and that’s something that you get to claim for yourself at any point in your life irrelevant of your experiences and think that finding bi+ community can be such an affirming way to explore that part of your identity without it being something you have to explore in terms of dating. You can be in a monogamous happy relationship or or a monogamous not happy relationship and still be a bisexual person who is comfortable with that aspect of their identity without needing to have physically explored it. It’s not a prerequisite for being bisexual is having sex with all the genders. Not at all. I would really recommend to try and find places which have bi+ community and access people who will understand this part of them and affirm it in them because it is a really special thing to be with people who validate this part of yourself.
ELEANOR: That is so, so beautiful and I’m going to ask you more about the Melbourne Bisexual Network and the event you have coming up soon but I wanted to share another question, this is from an ally - She is looking for advice how to navigate a relationship with a partner who identities as bi but hasn’t been able to explore their bisexuality yet.
MEGAN: I think that this is lovely, I love that they are here wanting to affirm their partner. That’s really heartening for me to hear because again so often we hear about bi folk who are in relationships who feel threatened by their sexuality and tie up with dangerous stereotypes about being promiscuous or not being able to be with one person or be honest. All these stereotypes are no more true of us than anybody, of any sexuality, and i think that it is wonderful that they want to help their partner feel like they are themselves and feel accepted for who they are. Thank you for existing. That makes me really happy. I would say read about it and tap into some community and tap into partners of bi folk, stuff on Facebook because this really exists.
I am hearing about this more, that partners are understanding the specific difficulties that bi folk suffer with and wanting to alleviate some of that. I think being with them and being open to talking about it is huge. Having a partner who is open to discuss this facet of your identity even if they don’t experience it themselves is so affirming and so wonderful just like we all want to be loved for all our parts in all the way that we exist. It’s really special to have someone who wants to engage with you in part of your identity which may be it's something you struggle with, maybe you haven't fully navigated, maybe you don’t feel ok with. I think that being open to chatting with your partner and listening to them and thinking of ways you can tap into community as well and getting support for you if it's something you’re struggling with, those internalised biphobic feelings or your fears because of what you have been programmed with. I think that it’s really wonderful to explore those things within yourself to support the people you love as well.
ELEANOR: I think that’s so beautiful. Actually questioning your conditioning, really looking in and asking - do I have any internalised Bi phobia? Does this make me uncomfortable and why? Where did I learn this from? - I think that is so important to do with everything in life but especially in this relationship. This person is really beautiful that they are so aware that they want to make sure their partner feels comfortable and another thing I would also suggest and this is definitely not for everybody and I will do another podcast at another time but also the option of exploring non-monogamy and potentially opening the relationship obviously there are a lot of things to consider in that kind of relationship style but it can be really freeing.
MEGAN: Yeah, from a perspective of feeling loved and also free to explore parts of yourself from a safe place. I think definitely as I think part of what is so wonderful about non-monogamy is it really encourages honesty, talking about everything. It gives a lot of room for folks to explore parts of their identity that maybe they would not feel ok to explore if they weren’t being care for and loved in different ways and I think they are very valid and important ways to explore parts of yourself if everyone is consenting definitely.
ELEANOR: Absolutely, that is the key. It is all about consensual non-monogamy and I know in my experience and also I have multiple friends who also identify as bisexual and are non-monogamous and it’s incredibly supportive for them, they feel that real care and love and respect and non-monogamy just as a practice really, really encourages communication like you have never spoken so much about the state of your relationship until you have been non-monogamous.
MEGAN: Definitely, for sure. It’s really a space of a lot of work and healing and potential for all sorts isn’t it? And on that note, I want to touch on the idea of that a lot of the internalising of stereotypes we can almost get programmed to think it would be bad to be a non-monogamous bisexual and I really would critique that whole idea is that just because may be you are wanting to explore in a place of freedom, that doesn’t make you a bad bisexual. You go and be bisexual however you want to be just be honest and get consent from the people you care about and be open with people, I think that is very important that you get to explore your sexuality and your gender in whatever way that feels right for you. Being conscious of caring about the people you are impacting of course. That is really important to mention thank you.
ELEANOR: Absolutely, I want to talk a little bit about femininity specifically. We know that I talk a lot about femininity and the energetics of the feminine and the masculine and this is something that I myself really got a little bit befuddled by when I was exploring bisexuality and that is feeling like maybe you are performing in your femininity when you are in an opposite gender relationship vs when you are in a same gender relationship. I know for me, personally and I spoke to you about this the other day Meg - I observed in myself that when I was getting ready to go on a date with a woman I put on an outfit that was more masculine than feminine and I looked in the mirror and I was like ‘what is this? Is this intentional? Is this subconscious? Do I feel I have to perform in a certain way because I am suddenly going on a date with a woman? What’s that about?’ Can you speak more about this idea of femininity?
MEGAN: I think it’s really interesting, it comes out more in dating. There have been a few studies that have talked about bi women dating and how differently they present depending on whether they are dating men or women or non-binary folk and I think it's really interesting as it speaks to what roles we play romantically and maybe sexually and how we show up and which parts of ourself we want to show off in different environments and something that I have been reflecting more of - how you present is not necessarily the energy you are going to bring. I think you can bring really masculine energy and be dressed in a really feminine way and vice versa. It’s really interesting because it's about how it makes you feel and whether you feel empowered in different ways and how we want to be appealing to different people. I think definitely it is something I have noticed in myself at times with dating men or women or non-binary people. I do probably present slightly differently. It’s partly tied up with people pleasing and expectations and wanting to mould myself to occasions and it’s also partly how I want to feel in my skin for the day as well. I found that I am able to embrace a lot of my femininity when I am not dressed in a super femme way, that I feel more in touch with my brand of femininity when I’m dressed in a way that presents more masculine. I also know that sometimes it puts off the kind of men I definitely wouldn’t be interested into. So I think this thing about playing with gender, being more queer in your presentation maybe means you are going to be likely to attract people who think similarly and may be alienate some of the folks who probably wouldn’t be on the same page as you. Allowing yourself that space to explore those things to give a bit more freedom to how you present and to play with those things instead of sitting in judgement when you are performing because all kind of dress and how we present is our elements of performance and how we exist with one another. I think that being seen and seeing people, there are lots of elements of that in their and performance doesn’t necessarily have to be negative or an acting type of thing. I can also be ways of being playful and exploring within yourself.
ELEANOR: OMG that is so well said. In the Feminine space I teach a lot about the idea of femininity and I say that in an energetic standpoint. We have spoken a lot about this in the past, I have spoken about this on the podcast that Feminine and Masculine are energetic traits and we can see them inside genders but everybody regardless of what gender they identify with, we have these energies. I really feel like we should rename them, I also call them - Yin & Yang; Go & Flow. It’s just this energetic properties and yeah as a CIS Woman I relate very heavily with my feminine side but I also really identify with my masculine side when I am getting stuff done, I am in certain energies.
I love what you said about even if I am presenting as masculine externally by the clothing I might be wearing you can often feel really feminine in that outfit and I think that not a lot of people quite realise. When I am working in the feminine space, I follow a lot of coaches who teach about femininity and while I love the realm of femininity sometimes I do feel we can still get so wrapped up in these heteronormative ideas of what is feminine and what is masculine. I loved how you described the other day that you feel most in your feminine is when you feel that tough and tenderness. Can you speak a little more to that?
MEG: I love the concept of the tough and tender queer because I identify as queer in my gender as well as my sexuality and I think that it’s great to give myself more room to explore those things. I think for a time I was quite alienated from my femininity and actually my friendship with you has been an important part of getting into touch with those things and seeing that I am intensely feminine in lots of different ways and again feminine and masculine are not as gender.
There are all these beautiful space for all these things and to feel it is entirely ok if I feel best when people assume I am presenting in a masculine way that actually I feel early feminine and I love connecting with softness. For me softness is one of the most important things that I try to stay in, trying to be loving and being vulnerable and also being incredibly strong and resilient. I love that duality and we talk about this in lots of different concepts like non-monogamy, gender and sexuality. Holding lots of things at the same time seeming quite in opposition to one another but I don’t see my toughness and tenderness as separate. I see them as deeply interconnected. One enables the other because I am strong, I get to be soft. Because I am more in touch with my masculine energy I get to be more in touch with my feminine energy. Instead of seeing these things as oppositional it really helps to look at them as being interconnected and nuanced. Those relationships are wonderful, I love being around people who are comfortable with these different aspects of themselves because it gives me a lot more room to be comfortable with these aspects in myself.
I love spending time with men who are in touch with their feminine energy and gentle, soft and vulnerable. I adore that just like I love being around non-binary people who get to play with all these different aspects and gender queer folk who aren’t afraid to explore all these parts of themselves and not afraid of what may happen if they lean into one. I think that is really special.
ELEANOR: I think that is such a wonderful thing to explore because, even in my work, I can see how - I speak a lot about polarity and having these opposing forces to create this magnetism. What is really nice is these opposing forces can switch and swap around and they don’t always have to exist inside these really strict structures. I think that so often we get really concerned about how things are presenting. Even in my work, I’ve followed a lot of feminine coaches and there’s even sometimes talk about the energy of the feminine - to be even more feminine wear dresses and do your hear and blah, blah, blah and all these things that can really feel great and I’m like I really love this, I feel great and amazing but other times I’m like no it doesn’t make me feel connected to who I am today at all and I know personally that I felt pressured - to be like ‘should I be presenting more femininely?’ Even more recently noticing in myself that I felt this internalised pressure or this sway to present masculine because I was going on a different type of date. This is so interesting to notice that, this where I talk so much about questioning your conditioning because it is like - ok am I following societal norms and rules or is this is how I feel what I want to do? How I want to express myself today?
MEGAN: Isn’t it such a time trying to enravel those things and to understand because you were told to and maybe not doing because you were told you should do it. I find that in myself sometimes purposely reject the things I was told to do and sometimes that means rejecting things that actually will make me really happy. I don’t want to be afraid to do the things that are like ‘normal’ or that are just what I was told if it feels good. I am all about integrating what you have been told and what feels right for you and if that is presenting in whatever way. I feel like you want to live the most joyous life possible and exploring these things is really important because there is so much joy to be found and ways of expressing parts of yourself maybe you haven’t wanted to look at. There are really interesting questions. Encourage self-reflection and so much to be found by looking into these things not being afraid or being afraid and looking into them because I speak as someone who is afraid of things, I just try not to let the fear stop me from doing things.
ELEANOR: I think the message here is you do what feels good and take the time to explore what does feel good and what might be conditioning and what parts of conditioning do feel good because sometimes we can get a little bit stubborn and not do what I was told to do. Even though it does feel good.
MEGAN: What are you talking about? It is something I have seen quite a lot of in myself. You don’t want to get so wrapped up in doing the opposite but you are rigidly following rules in a different way then, you are rejecting the ones you have been given and forcely following other ones that don’t fit you because you didn’t want to acknowledge the first ones. I think sometimes we can not see the second part - I rejected the norm - now I am being myself, or are you?
ELEANOR: This is where I feel like so many people can fall into, I have had so many people asking - do I pass as bi? Am I big enough? am I legitimate enough? and we have spoken about this and it's like all of a sudden when you realise this about myself, and this is my experience - am I legitimate enough? what do I have to change? do I get a uniform? Am I part of this club now? Do I have to change myself - I’m like ‘not really this is just your sexuality you do not have to change your identity.’
MEGAN: There is quite a lot of jokey bi culture popping up the different stereotypes, we are trying to create some of our own silly stereotypes around what bisexuals do and how they look and I love the concept of bisexual chaos. If you have a group of bisexuals trying to decide anything is awkward. I think that a part of that is a beautiful aspect of creating culture especially when you have been assigned so many negative stereotypes you want to create your own fun ones and not all bisexual people cuff their jeans or have certain types of ear piercings or undercuts it is also ok if you want to start doing some of things to be more visible as a bisexual person - if you want to wear a badge that says you are bi, that is also ok. Experiencing so much invisibility sometimes it can be nice to be loudly yourself.
I have an amazing group of friends - I remember going out for Mardi Gras the other year, we went out one day and everyone was so loudly bisexual and there is this part of me that I was so terrified of that and the other side was amazed to be visiblely loudly ourselves and not being apologetic about it.
Whatever feels good allowing yourself to be loud and it doesn’t have to be hugely visible for everybody if you don’t want it. You can be quietly bisexual that’s just as beautiful. Giving yourself that space and not just being worried what anyone will think or say about it is lovely to give that gift to yourself.
ELEANOR: I love that example from Mardi Gras that everyone was loudly bi. It reminds me of this hilarious Tik Toc that I have come across that this audio of someone asking - are you gay? Yeah, I’m gay. Someone opens up their jacket and they are wearing rainbow suspenders. It's kind of like ‘check it out, look’ I love that. Maybe I am wearing a pin that says Bi just so you know especially when we are talking so much about this idea of bi erasure and that often people can really feel invisible and not seen in either space and so maybe we can create this kind of language and culture to be more visible, to be more proud.
MEGAN: Some people wonder why bisexuality is such a big part of your life? I’m like - because it's a huge part of my identity that I have felt for so long that I didn’t get to own, I didn’t get to care for. Something that you squash down for long enough, something that can feel incredibly shameful and not accepted. I want to raise that up and feel ok, more than that I want to feel good. I think that we get to do that in ways that we want. I am all for hetrosexual people feeling really good for being hetrosexual but I want to feel good for being bisexual. I want my lesbian friends to feel good for being lesbian.I want my gay friends to feel good for being gay. If part of that is loudly embracing it I think ‘hell yeah that really matters to find ways to swim through the shame and get to place where you can shake it off and be like ‘I’m bisexual and that’s ok’ and to claim a bit higher and be like ‘I’m bisexual and its bloody fantastic’ because we all deserve to feel joy and pride in who we are. I’m all for finding ways to do that for yourself whoever is visible or not. Finding ways to love and accept these parts of yourself are so important.
ELEANOR: You are clearly very passionate which I love about you. This is culminated, you are the VP of Melbourne Bisexual Network, can you tell us about your upcoming event Big Bi+ Bonanza?
MEGAN: Melbourne Bisexual Network, I was incredibly greateful to find them a few years ago. I didn’t know that anything like this existed and understanding my own mental health struggles by reading about them from other people and realising it's not just me who is struggling. Has been so powerful for my life the difference I thought in myself has been huge I highly recommend it to any bi folk who are struggling with those part of themselves just to find a bi+ community and is part of why we developed the Big Bi+ Bonanza last year was a community event of coming together of bi+ folk in a room to celebrate being bi. Everyone was welcome - allies, families - and it was really a special day. We had over 700 people who came through. It was in Melbourne. We had a market and panels and artists so many incredible bi+ artists and amazing human beings in Melbourne. It was really special and having everyone being there and being in a room where the default was bisexual. That’s special, the first time everyone was in a room with just bi people - OMG this is what it feels like to be like the people around me and not feel there is something wrong with me, or something different about me that isn’t seen. - It’s really powerful, it is one of those things that you don’t know how much you really need it until you find it. We hear that from so many people for the first time we view it. It is very emotional - it's the feeling of getting to show up as yourself and being seen as yourself and for people who have never felt that in any space, in any point in their life. I hadn’t until I was in my late 20’s, that’s a big thing to feel like you haven't been able to show up as yourself openly in a room full of people so the Bi+ Bonanza was amazing for that and I think obviously this year it is different because I am in Melbourne and we are in hard lockdown so we are creating online events. We are collaborating across the whole of Australia and New Zealand as well to bring the Stand Bi Us Festival, I say festival it's actually a conference it’s kind of a festival too. Obviously the Bi is ‘BI’ because we do love a pun, the old bisexuals and yeah it’s a really special event put together by the amazing bunch of volunteers and it has all sorts, we have panels, discussions, parties, arts events, sports events, it's a really special thing that a lot of us have been working really hard for a period and everything is free so there is going to be lots of information about it on Facebook, we are launching a website next week which will be https://standbius.com and it’s pretty special.
ELEANOR: So special. So can you tell us when that is all happening?
MEGAN: It is going to be on the 18 - 23 September 2020, very close to now actually which we have all been realising the last couple of weeks and it's going to be accessible and have live captioning so it’s all going to be happening on Zoom and with this wonderful plugin called Otter which enables live captioning too. We will have more details on how to access all these things across our website and on the Facebook events as well.
ELEANOR: Amazing. I will also put all these details in the Show Notes too so that if anybody is interested in joining can do so, it sounds wonderful and very excited to be involved as well. What I’m going to do as well, I love journal prompts and this is something that I talk about in most episodes. I share something’s to consider so in the next week on Instagram we are going be putting up a whole bunch of insightful journal prompts that Megan & I have put together to really unpack how you feel about bisexuality whether you identify as bisexual or not. So, keep an eye out for that. So, just to wrap up Meg. It has been so great chatting with you today. I could chat for hours with you and I frequently do, I want to ask you - what would you love people to take away from this episode? What is the biggest thing that you just want people to know regardless of how they identify?
MEGAN: Oooo that is a big question. I think just going in for that self-reflection of challenging the assumptions you make about people and the assumptions you make about the ways people exist in the world. I think that we can be very restrictive with ourselves and also with other people and the thing I have loved the most about being in bi+ spaces and learning about bisexuality is that it is very spacious and there is a lot of freedom in it, there is so much room and if we could all make fewer assumptions about the people around us that would be really wonderful because it gives us a little more room to be authentically ourselves and to be honest about who we are when we are not feeling we are up against assumptions and that people have already decided that they know who we are, so giving ourselves and the people around us a bit more freedom and space to be themselves.
ELEANOR: Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing so openingly with us, so eloquently with us. I hope that this episode has been very enlightening for everybody listening. Thank you again, I love you so much and I really appreciate you being here and sharing with us.
MEGAN: I love you so much, thank you for having me on the show, it's been gorgeous to chat with you about all this and I hope it's been useful and affirming and helpful for those listening in. Thank you for having me.
